TRANSCRIPT
MARCO WERMAN: For more we turn to Samantha Power, who heads up the U.S. Agency for International Development – USAID. It’s keeping a close eye on the fighting while also trying to get humanitarian support to those who need it most. Administrator Power, thank you for being with us.
ADMINISTRATOR SAMANTHA POWER: Thank you.
MR. WERMAN: So this week, UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres warned that Sudan is on the brink of a full-scale civil war that could destabilize the entire region of Northeast Africa. What's the latest you are hearing about the situation on the ground?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Every day, we get new reports of flare ups of fighting in different parts of the country. Darfur, of course, is an epicenter of violence right now. But so is the capital Khartoum, which very few Sudanese could have imagined being wracked by a civil war like conflict, as it is now. Additionally, we're getting reports of looting of humanitarian facilities. And if you think of the ultimate embodiment of brutality, imagine a militia that both kills, committs sexual violence, and actually loots wheat and Ready-to-Use Therapeutic Food for starving children. And that's what we're talking about here in terms of the depravity of some of the violence being perpetrated.
It's also really tricky to get access to different parts of the country. So I can't claim to you that we have perfect knowledge, by any stretch of the imagination, across this vast country about where the needs are the most pressing. But we are trying to flow resources to trusted partners on the ground. This isn't the first time, as you noted, that Darfur has seen very significant violence, and so we do have relationships on the ground. And there are brave Sudanese and other international personnel who are there, trying to meet the health, food, shelter and other needs, but being able to do almost nothing to stem the violence.
MR. WERMAN: So the violence is being perpetrated by two armies, the national army and this rebel force, the Rapid Support Forces. Does it look as if civilians are siding with either general giving this conflict the sectarian aspect? Or do you see it as innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of two armies?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: I would say largely the latter, with the added wrinkle that both, the so-called RSF, the militia that you mentioned and the Sudanese Armed Forces have in many parts of the country sought to mobilize tribes on their side.
MR. WERMAN: Listeners will remember Administrator Power that before entering government, you were a prominent voice in the human rights community, focusing among other crises on Darfur – also a pioneer on what constitutes genocide. What are you seeing now in Darfur?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I think until we get better access, it's going to be very hard to label or to reach some kind of assessment. But what we know is that targeted killings, ethnically motivated killings, and attacks are occurring, and many of them are being perpetrated by the same individuals in some cases, and certainly the same militia that were active back in that horrible 2004 to 2005 period when genocide was perpetrated. I was in eastern Chad back, 20 something years ago, when genocide was being perpetrated in Darfur and I returned this past May. And it was just chilling in the extreme to meet with families who were crossing into Chad from Darfur, Sudan, and who were often crossing for the second, third, fourth time. And in one case, I met a mother whose son had been ripped from her arms and thrown into a fire. And I just thought I was in a time warp – because those are exactly the kinds of stories that I heard back in 2004.
MR. WERMAN: It sounds like you witness conditions there that possibly could lead to genocide.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: We have to know what the intent of the perpetrators are, and we have to have a better sense of scale. But, we already have evidence that executions are occurring, that sexual violence is being perpetrated, that internally displaced person camps, that those are being attacked.
MR. WERMAN: UN officials have called Sudan the toughest place in the world for humanitarian workers. Why is that?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Mainly now it's, of course, violence, mass violence and popping up in very unpredictable ways. But there's also horrific bureaucracy. I know that sounds banal compared to what we've been talking about, but when you actually have bureaucrats who are looking for ten permissions from various offices in order to allow a convoy to move from one part of the country with life-saving assistance in a to another part, it just compounds injury with insults, you might say. So we have been pressing, but, you know, because Sudan was in something of a governance limbo prior to the outbreak of fighting, because it had been on a path to civilian rule after years of dictatorship under Omar al-Bashir – who was indicted by the International Criminal Court – the people of Sudan rose up in 2018. And these popular female-led protests brought down this dictatorship and the AU helped facilitate a path to civilian rule.
MR. WERMAN: The African Union.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: But that didn't last long and those who felt themselves excluded launched a coup to undermine that. I mention all of this history because the will of the Sudanese people is being so defied again and again by these armed actors, but also it's actually very diffuse right now as to where the levers are to secure a greater humanitarian access for these life-saving goods, that are in some cases stuck in Port Sudan waiting to flow, but can't get a bureaucrat to sign off, in part because the tradition of obstructionism.
MR. WERMAN: So peace talks in Saudi Arabia have broken down. The U.S. and Saudi both seeing little productivity there. Egypt is playing some role saying it'll host leaders from Sudan's neighbors on Thursday. Administrator Power, where do you see glimmers of hope for resolving the conflict peacefully?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I think that the leadership shown in the last couple days as well by Prime Minister Abiy of Ethiopia and President Ruto of Kenya is encouraging. So regional leadership efforts, that also bring in the Arab-led process that the Saudis had been sharing on the humanitarian front in the town of Jeddah, we need these lines of effort to be proceeding in parallel. I will say also, USAID does a lot with civilians on the ground, it was civilians who rose up in demand the end of dictatorship, they were largely excluded from negotiations about Sudan's future after the coup. We are working hard on the ground to give them the support so they can self organize. It's really important that civilian voices, and women's voices, be at the table and that's not always what happens.
MR. WERMAN: Finally, Administrator Power you mentioned that trip to Chad, you made in May speaking with refugees escaping from Darfur and Sudan. Are there moments from that trip that stick with you today, maybe even haunt you?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: For me, the most haunting aspect of this is knowing how many people are unable to get out of Sudan. When I met with those refugees coming into Chad from Sudan, what they talked about was lines, processions of people, who were trying to get into Chad and we're being blocked or attacked while attempting to flee. So it's really the people who we aren't able to access, who we know are in desperate circumstances and who are either bunkered in their homes, or in displaced person camps, or being dressed down for bribes and have run out of money, who are dying of thirst, for all we know, in the very inhospitable conditions in Darfur. I think it is the unknown unknowns. And then knowing too much about who these perpetrators are and how they conduct themselves. It is that combination, I think that is chilling in the extreme.
MR. WERMAN: That's Samantha Power, the Administrator for the U.S. Agency for International Development. Administrator Power, thank you very much for your time.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Thanks for making time for this.