Kyiv, Ukraine
Transcript
OLENA REMOVSKA: Administrator Power, pleasure to have you here at Ukraine’s Public Broadcaster. Thank you very much for your time.
ADMINISTRATOR SAMANTHA POWER: I am a big fan of Ukraine’s Public Broadcaster and everything you are doing for people of your country.
OLENA REMOVSKA: Thank you very much. As the issue of food security is a big deal for USAID so I would probably start with the biggest news of this week. This week when you were in Kyiv, Russia announced that it is pulling out of the Black Sea Grain Initiative. So grain corridors don't work anymore – what does it threaten in the world?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, we saw from the creation of the Black Sea Grain Initiative, until Russia's decision – reckless decision – to withdraw, we saw every week grain prices go down globally. And in my job as head of USAID, I traveled to Somalia, to Kenya, to Lebanon, to Egypt, to countries that are reliant on imports of Ukrainian wheat and oils, and I saw the difference that resuming those exports meant to the poorest people, the most vulnerable people. So there's no question that any shrinking of supply on the global market is going to have an impact on the vulnerable, but it's also going to have an impact – and this is no coincidence – going to have an impact on Ukrainian farmers. When they don't know whether or not – even if they put a flak jacket on and deal with landmines or flying drones to apply pesticides instead of having to go out into the fields, they take all those risks and make all those investments if they don't know whether they can get their grain to market, that's a very different calculus for them. Already, the cost effectiveness of farming is much more questionable than before the war because transportation costs, waiting around in a port for an inspection to occur, all of that was very expensive for Ukrainian farmers. We at USAID are trying to offset some of those costs, trying to provide some fertilizer and loans, seeds, things to kind of get through this very difficult period. But now, if the Black Sea is off limits, if we're not able to do together, exports in bulk, that's going to be much, much harder.
REMOVSKA: Ukraine's President Zelenskyy already said that he thinks Ukraine, Turkey, and the United Nations can ensure that there is still the export of Ukrainian grain. Do you see alternative ways that could be used to exporting Ukrainian grain?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, let's talk about two different kinds of alternatives. So, the first is the kinds of alternatives that Ukrainians have been building since the full scale invasion started – alternatives by rail, by Danube, by road – and it's really impressive what Ukrainian entrepreneurs and engineers and planners have done. In the years before the full scale invasion, a little more than three million metric tons of agricultural goods left not through the Black Sea, but five million metric tons a month through the Black Sea, but only three million for the entire year through these other routes. Now, the farmers are able to export, and other exporters, are able to use those other routes, and it's about three million a month, three million metric tons a month. So that's a big improvement. But those routes won't fully compensate.
I just met with President Zelenskyy who also raised this idea of the United Nations and Türkiye going it alone – I think the challenge there, of course, is insurance, and is Russia's proven willingness to use food as a weapon of war and its savagery. I was in Odesa yesterday, just before I arrived, there were drone strikes, cruise missile strikes. I spent the day in the port – the port was completely empty – a bustling port. Had I visited two months ago, I would have seen all the ships, and workers, and people whose jobs depended on getting those exports out – just completely absent. But, Putin, yesterday tried to send a signal by hitting the port in the morning and then hitting it again deep into the night. And so I think the challenge that the international community has together is to figure out how to ensure that anything that leaves the Black Sea will be safe and will be insured.
My focus right now and that of President Biden is to try to push countries, particularly in the Global South and Africa, to themselves urge the Russian Federation to return to the deal. I know that sounds naïve to many Ukrainians, especially after two sets of attacks here in the last 24 hours.
REMOVSKA: So you think that Russia – that the international community – should try to bring Russia back to the deal.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well I think it's going to be cheaper to export anything through the Black Sea if the people who pilot the ships, and if the insurance companies, have Russian consent. It has been very expensive this last year under the Black Sea grain initiative, but compared to having no consent – and Russian warships patrolling and carrying out cruise missile attacks – that's obviously going to be much riskier. So, it's always better for political and diplomatic pressure to produce an outcome where you can consent. Beyond that – because that is our focus right now – again, we’ve just announced an additional $250 million investment in Ukraine's agricultural sector. I just announced that in the last day, that those resources will be used as well to expand those alternative routes that we talked about, including those in the Danube river ports which can expand their capacity even more.
REMOVSKA: When we say about bringing Russia back into this deal, you yourself just mentioned that Russia did this – two missile and drone strikes on Odesa, in particular on Odesa Port. What is the sense of looking for the ways to bring Russia back to this deal, because I think that what we see is like a proof that Russia is not going to follow any, any deals.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I certainly agree with your skepticism – especially given the attacks and really the weeks in advance of them pulling out of the deal which they were previewing that they were leaving, so they have been on record – but President Erdoğan of Türkiye, has invested an awful lot of his own political capital, and his leadership has been very important, I'm sure that he is not going to give up on the deal. More importantly maybe a perspective that I have from having been UN Ambassador – I watched for four years as Russia used lies, and misinformation, and coercion, and intimidation to try to galvanize political support at the United Nations. They have expanded their portfolio of tools and now they use significant communications assets in sub-Saharan Africa to try to create a false narrative about this war. They are very focused on winning support for their perspective in poor countries – in developing countries.
And so that's where I come back to, you know, countries that have maybe not taken the side of Ukraine in this war in a very vocal way, actually have surprising leverage with the Russian Federation. It doesn't mean it's gonna work, it doesn't mean that they're doing the necessary diplomacy of those countries – some of them are just hunkered down and trying to feed their people – but I think that it's less about, you know, is the United States condemnation going to convince Putin to come back to the Black Sea grain initiative, no, but there are a lot of other countries that Putin is very intent on convincing of a range of things, and countries in which Russia has security forces, even Wagner forces under Prigozhin. And when those countries say – “hey, our prices are going up, we need those exports” – you know, maybe that can be a factor. But if not, we have to look at alternative routes.
REMOVSKA: It's been more than 500 days since Russia started its full scale invasion of Ukraine. It's interesting how the challenges for USAID in Ukraine changed.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I will say the work that we have done since the full-scale invasion really builds on the work that we've been doing since the Maidan. Since Ukrainians rose up and said, you know, “we want our dignity, we want our independence, we want democracy and rule of law, checks and balances,” USAID has been invested in those sectors.
I think with the full scale invasion, obviously, the amount of USAID assistance is in an entirely different level. We've provided $19 billion worth of just direct budget support – just cash – to the Government of Ukraine to help pay pensioners each month, to pay first responders, to pay teachers, health clinics, the services provided there, but also the professionals who work in the health sector. That's been a huge part of it, but the other work – which is maybe less visible to your average Ukrainian – is support for independent media, support for anti-corruption institutions, support for judicial reform, and, critically, support for the Ukrainian economy.
We know that part of the cry for dignity was not only about avoiding Russian domination, not only about ending years of repression on human rights, but it's also economic dignity. And so one of the things I just talked to President Zelenskyy about is how we can expand our support for small and medium sized enterprises. I've already described the support for Ukrainian farmers that we have offered, recognizing a huge part of Ukraine's GDP in the agricultural sector constitutes – female entrepreneurs, those people who lost their businesses in maybe an occupied territory, but want to start again, you know, in this part of the country, or someplace else, being there to provide just that little bit of catalytic financing. And that is beneficial in many ways – of course, to the Ukrainian economy and to those individuals, potentially – but also, what the Ukrainian government wants to do is to not have to rely on direct budget support from donors, it wants to be able to go back to relying on taxes and a more traditional, conventional economy.
So I think we are on our way. The tech sector here in Ukraine has probably, you know, but most Americans did not know grew by 6% or 7% since the war began. Diia, which you all, you know, take for granted, we Americans, we want to steal your phones, we want to steal your app, we can't believe that you have, in one place, all of these services. I was just, today, in Bucha where people who lost their homes due to Russian attacks are now using Diia’s e-recovery platform to get payments to use to rebuild those homes. And it's an anti-corruption tool as well, because, actually, when you get a payment to rebuild your home, because you have proven the damage, you're only able, by virtue of the code in the app, to spend the resources that you get on building tools. You can't go buy a car, or a diamond ring, and so the the technological revolution and the digitization that has occurred here really is actually going to bring government closer to people which can make government more accountable to the citizens, and also give citizens a lot more transparency into how resources like those that USAID is providing and government resources more generally, how those are being spent.
And as we think about reconstruction, the big effort is going to be needed when Ukraine has won this war, that those checks and balances, those systems, reliable judges, civil society that know that they can raise their voices and complain and expose, without fear of retribution, that ecosystem, that civil infrastructure is going to be absolutely critical to giving investors from outside the confidence that they need to come to Ukraine.
REMOVSKA: Ukrainians already saw how the winter during the full-scale invasion looks like and what I hear from some Ukrainians, they have a view that maybe the next winter will be even worse than the previous one. I know that USAID invested a lot last winter in this winter related issues. And it's interesting if during your visit, these days, any of the Ukrainian government officials, or really some local authorities approached you with some very specific requests.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Absolutely. On my first day, on what has been a multi-day visit, I was able to visit CHP-5 which suffered a lot of damage. In fact, Russian attacks on the energy infrastructure and real damage that is still being repaired today and a missile came in and burrowed itself in the ground and destroyed two really important components of the power station. But before winter, for example, one of the things that has to happen is, the roof has to be fully repaired for temperature control within the power station. And so we talked a lot about how those repairs can be funded. But it is also about making sure, as we did in real time this past winter, that schools and health facilities have backup power.
If Russia employs the same tactics, and you know, the intentional attacks on civilian infrastructure does count as war crimes, but that doesn't stop Putin and his forces. So I think we have to go into the winter clear eyed about just what we can expect from him. And USAID, again, [inaudible] in advance, is working with our Ukrainian partners in the Ministry of Energy to do early procurement. Last winter, it was very hard to actually get access to the boilers, the mobile power plants, the substations, the spare parts. Now we have a little more lead time, it doesn't mean that the winter is going to be an easy winter for the brave people of this country, but certainly we take our responsibility on the outside, as those who are suffering what the Ukrainians are suffering, to do everything we can to scramble in advance to be prepared for whatever Putin throws at you.
REMOVSKA: Many Ukrainians remember and identify you as a former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. And during this more than 500 days, Ukrainians have a lot of questions to the United Nations. And you've probably heard criticism from Ukrainian [inaudible] the United Nations, for example, Ukraine’s Foreign Minister [Dmytro] Kuleba he said that Russia must be removed from the UN Security Council. What do you think about this? Is that the way and is that possible?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I can certainly understand where Ukrainian frustration is coming from. I remember those days of doing battle with the Russian Ambassador to the UN – at the time [Vitaly] Churkin. I used to refer to the Security Council sessions as upside down land, because up was down and white was black and nothing that was said about what was happening bore any resemblance to the facts as they were actually unfolding. So it is incredibly frustrating, but I view it – viewed then and view it now – as a venue where we, you know, truth tellers, people who know the facts, explain what is happening. There's a wide audience for that. 144 countries have stood with Ukraine, I know to a Ukrainian that doesn't sound like a lot, because there are 193 countries in the UN – but wait what about the other, nearly 50 countries – but most of the others, they’re ducking under the table. They don't want to create problems, because they know that Russia is the aggressor, and they don't want to create enemies, and maybe their small countries or poor countries. But the UN has been a venue, actually, to mobilize the largest global coalition in opposition to Russia's aggression.
You know, I think it's absurd for Russia to be using its veto on the security council, when it should be recused – given that it is the country that is violating the charter. But you know, Ukraine is not suffering globally any misimpression about what is happening. The UN and many UN officials, like the Secretary General – who just condemned Russia's decision to pull out of the Black Sea Grain Initiative, UN human rights monitors who come in and see the treatment of people, the atrocities – the gender based violence – all of that is actually documented by independent UN officials. And I think that documentary record when there is accountability, which there will be one day, will prove very, very important.
REMOVSKA: This week, right after Russia pulled out of this Black Sea Grain Initiative, there was a meeting of the UN Security Council and the representative of the Russian Federation had 15 minutes, once again to spread his fake version of what is going on in Ukraine. You mentioned he exists upside down the world is still there at the UN Security Council and Russian Ambassador has the same stages, as for example, the UK and the U.S. Ambassadors have, and they invest a lot of [inaudible] in dealing with consequences of Russian aggression against the Ukrainian people. What is the sense of the existence of such a system of this insecurity?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Look, the UN System was created in the wake of WWII, and the WWII victor's obtained power that persists to this day. And, again, when you see a permanent member of the UN Security Council, the Russian Federation, abusing its privilege as a veto holder it is not only maddening but it is actually heartbreaking. Because we need an international system that works for large and small countries alike. We need a rulebook that is enforced and not just admired from afar. But again, as frustrating and as, I think, painful as it is to hear those lies, and when you're living here in Ukraine, and you're a farmer whose farmland is mined for now, we have no place to send your goods to market, or you've lost as a member of your family in the effort to defend Bakhmut. I mean, you see this, and I know, I can't say I know, because I'm not experiencing what the Ukrainians are experiencing, but it is, it is a different kind of agony to hear these lies.
But I want you to understand that, really and truly other than in the Russian Federation, and maybe a few countries that, you know, feel that they have no choice or are under an awful lot of pressure from Putin, other than a tiny, tiny number of countries, nobody is buying it. I mean, I watch people at the UN Security Council – what you don't see on TV – is when the Russian Ambassador is talking, often people are on their phones, are scrolling through the sports scores, they're going shopping on shopping app, they’re not listening.
So I know it feels like it's legitimating because it is giving a platform to people who are committing significant violations of the UN Charter, who are carrying out war crimes and crimes against humanity. But it is not having the effect that you were afraid of. People are very, very clear about the aggression that’s been perpetrated.
REMOVSKA: And this leads to my last very short question, considering what we see, for example in the UN Security Council, does the world really have instruments to stop Russia's war against Ukraine?
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Well, I think the United States has part of the answer there in mobilizing the democracies of the world to provide an unprecedented amount of security assistance. We recognize that it's not just Ukraine's freedom and sovereignty that is at stake here, but that of the democratic world. And, again, I know there's always a debate about which weapon system and – we could get into that's not my lane as USAID Administrator – but this kind of unity in NATO, the expansion of NATO, in response to Russian aggression already by Finland, and soon by Sweden as well. That is an example of a coalition of the willing that has come together.
The UN is, as you know, is blocked, because Russia is a permanent member of the Security Council. So it is not performing its enforcement duties as it should be. But democracies of the world are coming together in huge numbers, again, both in terms of Ukraine's defense, and also the kind of work that USAID does, in helping Ukrainians build the democratic and prosperous future that they deserve. And I think the ultimate test of our global values in our global institutions will be Ukraine's victory in the end in this conflict. And that's why it's so important to me – back in the United States – is to remind people, that the victory will come not only from the provision of patriot air defense – which is absolutely critical, not just artillery shells and money – but also making sure that Ukrainians can get through the winter, it’s that young people have jobs when they graduate with this incredible education, it’s supporting a startup, supporting Ukrainian infrastructure, where on the backend of this war, you will be able to rely not only on the Black Sea, but a whole host of other channels for export.
So we are living in the present and in the pain of the present that has been inflicted on an innocent country, and innocent people, and Ukrainians are fighting in the present on both fronts on the battlefront and on the home front. But at the same time, we fight in the present and we are building in a very different kind of future which is going to be the ultimate repudiation of the Putin playbook.
REMOVSKA: Thank you very much for your time.
ADMINISTRATOR POWER: Thank you.